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Alexandros · Jan 13, 08, 12:26 AM

The question of blind faith has always been of intense interest to me. In fact, I was so interested in this question that I went and paid $600 for a course in Religion, hoping to get out of it some sense of what goes on in believers' heads. And bought a $50 Bible.

I still can't understand it. I've spent time staring at the ceiling, scrunching up my facilities and trying to will myself into the appropriate state of mind for religious zeal but can't manage to do it.

So, along comes this newsletter in my mail from the Worldwide Church of God Canada, of which I will provide various excerpts of for your reading pleasure:

Quote:

Quote:

"Christians, Jews, and atheists agree that Jesus was crucified and buried...most historians agree that the early disciples believed that Jesus had risen from the dead...Even agnostic historians will admit that the disciples believed that Jesus had been resurrected...The disciples...just tell us what they believed, and it is clear that they believed that Jesus died and was buried and was resurrected. And it is clear that the reason they believed this is because they saw it with their own eyes... Why did they believe this? The most plausible explanation is to accept their testimony. All other theories are far-fetched and historically unlikely...the explanation that makes the most sense is that the disciples believed that Jesus was resurrected because Jesus appeared to them and told them he was resurrected."

Summary: Even atheists and Jews believe that Jesus lived and was crucified. His resurrection is proved because the disciples said so, and they said so because Jesus told them so.

Corollary: The Easter bunny exists because I say so.

Still, this is an improvement, as unlikely as that is. Proof from the writings of St. Anselm of the 11th century:

Quote:

Quote:

"[E]ven the fool is convinced that something exists in the understanding, at least, than which nothing greater can be conceived. For, when he hears of this, he understands it. And whatever is understood, exists in the understanding. And assuredly that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, cannot exist in the understanding alone. For, suppose it exists in the understanding alone: then it can be conceived to exist in reality; which is greater.

Therefore, if that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, exists in the understanding alone, the very being, than which nothing greater can be conceived, is one, than which a greater can be conceived. But obviously this is impossible. Hence, there is no doubt that there exists a being, than which nothing greater can be conceived, and it exists both in the understanding and in reality."

Summary (aka. what I could make out of it after reading it six times): Even the atheist can understand and conceive of God, which is the greatest thing that can be conceived. If God existed solely in someone's understanding, then there is something greater that can be conceived. This is a paradox. Hence, God exists both in the atheist's understanding and in reality.

Corollary: Atheists prove the existence of God.

Discuss! I don't want to see that I typed all this **** out for nothing...

Deadpool · Jan 13, 08, 01:00 AM

That second quote is just a bunch of jumbled crosswords. I don't want to start another riot, but I can't stand stuff like this.
I can't agree fully with the first quote either, about the only acceptance is to believe that the disciples were telling the truth, that is half of it. It is confirmed through knowledge given to God's followers through the Holy Spirit.
We believe because we feel the presence of God, His son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all working on our behalf to bring us to Him, and that we may have the opportunity to know of His love.

**Scarface** · Jan 13, 08, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadpool

That second quote is just a bunch of jumbled crosswords.

I would love to hear the morons definition of a crossword.

But regardless, i'm sure you have trouble understanding a bus time table let alone an intelligent argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandros

$50 Bible

There's the meaning of christianity.

**icemagic** · Jan 13, 08, 04:12 AM

Seriously, a bunch of deciples say they saw it with there own eyes, but if a bunch of people who call themselves deciples say they saw the tooth fairy does that mean its real?

**Tim** · Jan 13, 08, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandros

Summary (aka. what I could make out of it after reading it six times): Even the atheist can understand and conceive of God, which is the greatest thing that can be conceived. If God existed solely in someone's understanding, then there is something greater that can be conceived. This is a paradox. Hence, God exists both in the atheist's understanding and in reality.

Corollary: Atheists prove the existence of God.

There are better versions of this argument (google Ontological argument), I like Plantiga and Malcolm's, but it's got loads of flaws to it.
Kant pointed out a good few, most notably that existence does not add anything to an object, it is not a predicate, and so it kind of means that something can't be greater because of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadpool

That second quote is just a bunch of jumbled crosswords. I don't want to start another riot, but I can't stand stuff like this..

**Lupus** · Jan 13, 08, 01:53 PM

I disagree. Because I can.

I shall add reason after I've eaten.

**Estacado** · Jan 13, 08, 03:04 PM

Jesus had told them that he had resurrected, that does not make that 100% true though. Anyone could tell anyone anything.
The death and resurrection of Jesus are two core events on which much of Christian religion and theology depend.
Jesus was crucified, and buried in a tomb, and three days later he appeared and told that he was resurrected.
Was he really buried? Was he really dead? Was he really dead and resurrected?
These are all told through historical writings and such. But who knows any of it to be true, unless you saw it with your own eyes, or if you believe.

There are countless arguments you can have over this, but who really knows. It can be true or not true. Its whether you believe or don't believe.

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 13, 08, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estacado

There are countless arguments you can have over this, but who really knows. It can be true or not true. Its whether you believe or don't believe.

That would be the bottom line. ^

The arguments supporting and or denying the existence of God are virtually endless. What's more, it does not usually alter one's opinion either way.

**The Dudemeister** · Jan 13, 08, 07:48 PM

For jesus to be ruled dead on the cross, also is kinda iffy. Factoring in the amount of wrongful burials of that age due to medical inaccuracies, and you will see that it is totally possible for his body to have just shut down to minimal levels of activity and be pronounced dead, just cuz he looked it.

**Lupus** · Jan 13, 08, 07:52 PM

Haven't I also heard that at the time of Jesus, they would've been merely nailing the victim to a tree instead of crafting these elaborate crosses?

I'm sure I have.

**Estacado** · Jan 13, 08, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

For jesus to be ruled dead on the cross, also is kinda iffy. Factoring in the amount of wrongful burials of that age due to medical inaccuracies, and you will see that it is totally possible for his body to have just shut down to minimal levels of activity and be pronounced dead, just cuz he looked it.

That could have been very true for that time in age.

They still had the intellectual capacity to tell if someone was breathing or not though. That may have not been the case altogether.

Shutting down to a coma type state and pronounced dead.

**The Dudemeister** · Jan 13, 08, 08:13 PM

It still happens today, even with al of our modern technology. The heart rate and pulse drop dramatically. Beathing slows down to less than a couple of breaths in a few minutes.

Deadpool · Jan 14, 08, 12:01 AM

Can't the same thing be said of elements of Science such as the big bang, evolution? Were you there? Saw it happen?

This topic about death is not really something that you guys need to be discussing. You do not follow what is in the Bible, you really have no right to say what you think is right about it unless you are a scholar of it. You don't even know anything about the Holy Spirit as I do, let alone the Trinity.
I rest my case.

**The Dudemeister** · Jan 14, 08, 01:16 AM

Phatty, trust me. Anything you know abotu christianity, I know, and more. I know every ascpet of christianity, every teaching, every belief, which is why I chose to become a Satanist. It is not good to know all there is to know about something. It will turn you away from it.

Though you are not asking my advice, I will break the first rule of Satanism in order to help you in your life long fight. No matter what, do not, i repeat, DO NOT, learn all there is to know about christianity. When you do, you will most likely be turned away by it. If you wish to keep your conviction, do not learn all you can, stay blind to some of it, keep your blind faith. That is what will keep you a christian.

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 14, 08, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

For jesus to be ruled dead on the cross, also is kinda iffy. Factoring in the amount of wrongful burials of that age due to medical inaccuracies, and you will see that it is totally possible for his body to have just shut down to minimal levels of activity and be pronounced dead, just cuz he looked it.

Everyone knows that they held a mirror up to see if he was still brathing. Duh......

**Lupus** · Jan 14, 08, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadpool

Can't the same thing be said of elements of Science such as the big bang, evolution? Were you there? Saw it happen?

Well technically, SCIENCE has seen at least the aftermath of the big bang.
And for the last time, yes, evolution is afact. we can't see it in humans because it doesn't happen in one member of the species in its lifetime.
Insects, mind you, breed very quickly and we HAVE seen evolution in those. Obvious not on the scale of them becoming a whole different species, but subspecies? Sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadpool

This topic about death is not really something that you guys need to be discussing. You do not follow what is in the Bible, you really have no right to say what you think is right about it unless you are a scholar of it. You don't even know anything about the Holy Spirit as I do, let alone the Trinity.
I rest my case.

"No right to say..."? This, from an American? Whatever happened to free speech? Whatever happened to "I may not like what you say, but i'll defend your right to say it"? Hell, even I'm guilty of that last one, offering to set you, Phatty, up with a new alias at CC if and when your original one was banned.
Simply because I find your idiocy very amusing.

So tell me, when did YOU become a scholar of the bible, and thus earn the right to tell everyone else that they can't tell anyone else about... what they...
Hang on...

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