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**Sean** · Jan 17, 08, 07:24 PM

Well, it looks like your attempt at a discussion has gotten a little out of hand...
As a reply to the original post; You can't truly understand Faith without God. God has revealed himself to the world by Inspiring his word, and Faith is a gift.
The factual history of Jesus Christ life and death and ressurection are very important, but in my oppinion God's purpose is a more important topic for discussion.
Short flash video
The Way of the Master

**Hatgirl** · Jan 17, 08, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandros

If God existed solely in someone's understanding, then there is something greater that can be conceived.

I think it hinges on this bit. It revolves around the fact that this is a paradox, but honestly, I can conceive of greater things than "God" (doubtless to whether you believe he/she/it/them exists). For instance, in which way are we interpreting "greater"? Greater as in more powerful, a larger, more awe-inspiring idea, one with a bigger effect, one with a greater psychological or physical effect? Or just in terms of an idea that is start and finish, with no explanation to the explanation?

Why is this so? Because there is a God. But why is there a God? If you cannot explain the explanation, does this make it a "greater" idea? Which way are we to think of this phrase?

For instance, I believe that the idea of God or Gods has a huge psychological effect. People base their entire lives around it, so in this aspect, it is a "great" idea. But great as in correct? There is no proof. But great as in you cannot conceieve anything larger, more immense? Personally, I can. The idea of an infinite universe, ever expanding, of ideas and theories we cannot even dream of yet that will emerge - now that is "great". To think of the big bang, to think of the million to one chances that got me on the planet today - personally, I believe that is more awe inspiring.

It's all a matter of personal belief. If you believe in a God or Gods, you're never going to understand the mindset of someone who doesn't, and vice versa, and all I can say is that I respect people who devote their lives to their beliefs, rather than staying half in and half out. I respect passion and intelligent thought, no matter where it leads us, rather than apathy.

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 18, 08, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

You say that Jesus rose from the dead but what does that actually mean? No one actually thinks of a litteral zombie Jesus (or at least I hope not) since there are occasions where Jesus appears inside locked rooms and stuff so it's not like you need to concentrate on the physical body that was there. Infact I really don't think it would matter if you found a dead body that you could prove was Jesus, since that would be , obviously, the dead Jesus.

The Shroud of Turon (to some) provides evidence that Christ had died. More so, had died in a way constant with that of crucifiction.

Jews do not deny the existence of Chist. They believe that he was a prophet, but not the Messiah. They do not deny that he lived.

If one reads th Bible, it is apparent that Christ did not return as a "Jesus Zombie". He was in a form that was not recognizable to the disciples and essentially, did not come back as "man".

That being said, I give kudos to Tim for pointing out the fact that yeah, Christ may have lived and died. What made him "The Messiah" was that he was resurected from the dead. This is in the Bible, but as word of mouth. THERE IS NO TANGIBLE PROOF of him rising on the third day.

Bottom line, you either believe this, or not.

**NinPlayBox** · Jan 18, 08, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAPPHIRERUBY

The Shroud of Turon (to some) provides evidence that Christ had died. More so, had died in a way constant with that of crucifiction.

Jews do not deny the existence of Chist. They believe that he was a prophet, but not the Messiah. They do not deny that he lived.

If one reads th Bible, it is apparent that Christ did not return as a "Jesus Zombie". He was in a form that was not recognizable to the disciples and essentially, did not come back as "man".

That being said, I give kudos to Tim for pointing out the fact that yeah, Christ may have lived and died. What made him "The Messiah" was that he was resurected from the dead. This is in the Bible, but as word of mouth. THERE IS NO TANGIBLE PROOF of him rising on the third day.

Bottom line, you either believe this, or not.

Tangible hhhmmm. There is a walk throught to prove he indeed did rise. It uses overwhelming circumstancial evidence and if understood is basically irrufutable. But its a "since this is how something works, its understood that the response is this way " type walk through and not proovable by hard fact. Yet after you walk throough the entire explanation leaves little room to doubt.

Way of the Matster is a very solid website, read and watch their videos, they cover the whole athiest don't exist thing way better than I do. And you can google the nighline, or abc or what ever primetime debate with Kirk Cameron and his artner vs the "atheists." its intresting to see.

But this should be discused in a differe

nt thread as we have clearly left the topic of athiesim proveing god.

Alexandros · Jan 19, 08, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nin

he lived, he endured a toture no mere human could have endured

Assuming he lived and was crucified, I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say that he probably wasn't the only person to have ever been crucified. And they did endure it. Yes it killed them but endure it they did, what else could they have done?
The meaning of the word "endure" is akin to "undergo, tolerate, bear" etc. Not "live through, die and rise up again", Mr. English Major.
You obviously have a conception in your mind that he was a great supernatural creature, and thus shower him with praise and complements, did you forget that two other criminals were crucified alongside him, neither of whom anyone ever talks about?
All those other people who have been crucified in history, they didn't "endure" it?

**Lupus** · Jan 19, 08, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinPlayBox

It uses overwhelming circumstancial evidence...

Anyone see the flaw?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinPlayBox

It uses overwhelming circumstancial evidence...

Anyone?

**Tim** · Jan 19, 08, 10:19 AM

It is rare that you see circumstantial and irrefutable in the same sentence.

**Lupus** · Jan 19, 08, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinPlayBox

It uses overwhelming circumstancial evidence...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

It is rare that you see circumstantial and irrefutable in the same sentence.

Well, quite.

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 20, 08, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandros

Assuming he lived and was crucified, I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say that he probably wasn't the only person to have ever been crucified. And they did endure it. Yes it killed them but endure it they did, what else could they have done?
The meaning of the word "endure" is akin to "undergo, tolerate, bear" etc. Not "live through, die and rise up again", Mr. English Major.
You obviously have a conception in your mind that he was a great supernatural creature, and thus shower him with praise and complements, did you forget that two other criminals were crucified alongside him, neither of whom anyone ever talks about?
All those other people who have been crucified in history, they didn't "endure" it?

^Indeed Lil. During the time period in question, crucifiction was the method of death de jour in those parts. The Romans were partial to the nailing bit I guess.

Actually, the thief on the "cross" that was next to Christ, Barabus was his name, is often talked about. When people say "The Jews killed Christ", they are referring to an incident in the Bible involving the thief Barabus. (I might be spelling the name wrong but bear with me here)

Because the "scheduled" death of Christ occurred during Passover, the Jewish holiday, Pontious Pilot (the Roman), per decree, allowed the people to let one of the condemned men go free...as a "gesture of sorts". The crowd (being Jewish ) was let to decide who was to be set free. Pontious Pilot even inquired (albeit with apparent sarcasm) if they wanted their Lord and King to be set free. They did not. They chose to have the thief Barabus go free, thus condemning Christ AGAIN to death. Had they chose Jesus, who knows how the Bible would have read.

Regarding the other condemned man on the "cross" next to Jesus..He asked and was granted forgiveness from his Savior....

Wow, I guess I paid more attention than I thought. That came back like a bolt of lightening.......

It was exposure and dehydration that killed those that were crucified.... Many simply bled out from the wounds. The Roman soldier threw a sword in the the side of Christ, hastening his demise. (U-2 sings a little diddy referencing just this act).

**Sean** · Jan 20, 08, 11:07 PM

Alexandros; If I was jumping out of an airplane, knowing that I was given a parachute is FAR more important than knowing how much sacrifice somone made to make it for me.

God's purpose for the Old testament was to show that we cannot save ourselves.
Then, having prepared our hearts, God provided a way to clean ourselves by sending his son to Live a perfect life and then pay the consequences for sin.
I know he made the ultimate sacrifice; I think The Passion was horrible because it concentrated on the "How" of God's salvation and not the method (Which is Repent of your sins, and believe that Jesus Christ lived and died as a sacrifice for your sins).

If you want to talk about the how; here is my description:
I put my dog out back. He can't leave the yard unless he is going on a walk, etc. Compared to my life, his life sucks. But, would I sacrifice my life as a human to become a dog to save another person, knowing that after enduring 14 years in a small pen that I would be tortured and killed? Jesus gave up his life and Godly characterics to enter time and live as a puny human; One who must endure every and all temptation at their severest levels while living his life in service to others until he made the ultimate sacrifice.
Knowing what Christ left behind so that he could live as a servant to created beings and then die to save them... that is what Christ endured, and it is well beyond our comprehension

Deadpool · Jan 20, 08, 11:28 PM

Sean that is exactly what I felt about the Passion movie. I watched it halfway and took it out.
====================
Not every aspect of Christ's death can be proven, but there is some evidence. His tomb is still in existence. And what I remember, His name was carved on the tomb back in Bible days, and His name is still there.
But there was this important some time ago:

Quote:

Surprising Archaeological Find: Proof of Jesus' Existence?
Have scholars found firm evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, His earthly father and one of His half brothers? An intriguing find bears their names.
by Mario Seiglie

First it was the name of the Roman governor Pontius Pilate found in a monument in Caesarea, Israel, in 1961.

Then came the discovery in 1990 in Jerusalem of an ossuary, a burial box for bones, bearing the name of Caiaphas, the high priest who condemned Jesus. Just recently it appears the most spectacular of all archaeological finds relating to Jesus has surfaced.

Another ossuary has come to light, this one bearing the names of Jesus, James and Joseph, three of the most prominent people in the New Testament. The ancient Aramaic words inscribed on the limestone box state that it belonged to "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

In late October Andre' Lemaire, a specialist in ancient inscriptions and professor at the Sorbonne in Paris, announced the discovery of the stone container with the extraordinary script. An Israeli collector, Oded Golan, had purchased the box from an Arab antiquities dealer more than a decade ago. Mr. Golan had not thought the artifact important until Professor Lemaire examined it. In fact, although Mr. Golan had read the inscription, he hadn't connected it with the biblical Jesus.

The dealer told Mr. Golan that the box had come from a burial site in southern Jerusalem where a bulldozer had accidentally uncovered a site containing tombs and bone boxes dating to the time of Jesus and James.

Much to the disappointment of archaeologists and scholars, the box was not excavated by a trained archaeologist from the spot where it had rested for the last 2,000 years. Instead it was surreptitiously removed and sold on the antiquities market (as is the case with a high percentage of archaeological finds in the Holy Land). Regrettably, this prevents the examination of the box in its proper archaeological context and the elimination of any possibility of fraud.
Strong evidence for authenticity

Yet fraud seems rather unlikely. Before the announcement of the discovery, the limestone box was subjected to rigorous scientific tests to rule out the possibility. A team of experts from the Geological Survey of Israel examined the box and the inscription under a microscope and found no evidence of modern tools or tampering. Like the rest of the box, the inscription, though wiped clean in parts, has a thin sheen of particulate matter formed on it called a patina. This particular patina shows that it developed in a cave environment and that it is consistent with an age of 2,000 years.

By its very nature the artifact can be dated to within a few decades. Such bone boxes were in use from about 20 B.C. to A.D. 70, when according to Jewish custom the dead were first sealed in caves or rock-cut tombs, then their bones later transferred to a limestone bone box after the body had decayed.

Professor Lemaire further narrowed the dating by verifying that the inscription was in a cursive style used only in the few decades before A.D. 70, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Thus the inscription fits the style used around A.D. 62, when James, Jesus' half brother, died.

Hershel Shanks, editor of Biblical Archaeology Review, which announced the discovery, explained that the inscription was reviewed by Joseph Fitzmyer, one of the world's foremost experts on first-century Aramaic and a preeminent Dead Sea Scrolls editor. Professor Fitzmyer was at first troubled by the spelling of the word for brother, because it was a plural form used centuries later. But further research yielded the same form in one of the Dead Sea Scrolls and on another first-century ossuary. "I stand corrected," Professor Fitzmyer said.

A putative forger would have to know Aramaic better than Professor Fitzmyer, which seems rather unlikely. "To my mind," wrote Mr. Shanks, "this is one of the strongest arguments for the authenticity of the James inscription" (Biblical Archaeology Review, November-December 2002, p. 33).

Source: GN Magazine
Good find.

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 21, 08, 08:55 AM

Martyrs.................. .

**NinPlayBox** · Jan 21, 08, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nin
he lived, he endured a toture no mere human could have endured

Assuming he lived and was crucified, I'm going to hazard a wild guess and say that he probably wasn't the only person to have ever been crucified. And they did endure it. Yes it killed them but endure it they did, what else could they have done?
The meaning of the word "endure" is akin to "undergo, tolerate, bear" etc. Not "live through, die and rise up again", Mr. English Major.
You obviously have a conception in your mind that he was a great supernatural creature, and thus shower him with praise and complements, did you forget that two other criminals were crucified alongside him, neither of whom anyone ever talks about?
All those other people who have been crucified in history, they didn't "endure" it?
__________________
Sorry I wasn't clear to you.... The torture was prior to being crucified.... He endured and lived through more than any human had before PRIOR to being nailed to the cross. The hanging on the cross gave him a rest I would guess he was able to converse with ihs mother, and witness to the other guys being crucified. He never passed out and never spoke out....Watch the passion it shows in avid detail how gruesome and truly skilled Romans were at killing. Each thing he went through was designed to kill him before he made it to the cross, not only did he endure it all, in the way you talk of enduring, but he carried his cross on his back, no easy feet for a fully healthy man, thathasn't been beaten all day, to do as i,t was very very heavy. The man who played Jesus, Jim C., in the passion was accidently hit one time, by just one little piece of the metal tipped whip while filming the movie and passed out from the sheer pain of it. Jesus is documented to have taken all 40 whips (without armor) and never have passed out. The have the crown of thorns shoved on his head, stand up and carry his cross, thats endureing torture, the type of torutre no other human has had to, since any othe human would have died prior to the carrying of the cross by one of the other kill methods used against him.

even if you dont believe you will be amazed at the torture used on chrst...

_________________________ ____________
^Indeed Lil. During the time period in question, crucifiction was the method of death de jour in those parts. The Romans were partial to the nailing bit I guess.

Actually, the thief on the "cross" that was next to Christ, Barabus was his name, is often talked about. When people say "The Jews killed Christ", they are referring to an incident in the Bible involving the thief Barabus. (I might be spelling the name wrong but bear with me here)

Because the "scheduled" death of Christ occurred during Passover, the Jewish holiday, Pontious Pilot (the Roman), per decree, allowed the people to let one of the condemned men go free...as a "gesture of sorts". The crowd (being Jewish ) was let to decide who was to be set free. Pontious Pilot even inquired (albeit with apparent sarcasm) if they wanted their Lord and King to be set free. They did not. They chose to have the thief Barabus go free, thus condemning Christ AGAIN to death. Had they chose Jesus, who knows how the Bible would have read.

Regarding the other condemned man on the "cross" next to Jesus..He asked and was granted forgiveness from his Savior....

Wow, I guess I paid more attention than I thought. That came back like a bolt of lightening.......

It was exposure and dehydration that killed those that were crucified.... Many simply bled out from the wounds. The Roman soldier threw a sword in the the side of Christ, hastening his demise. (U-2 sings a little diddy referencing just this act).

true and it is very talked about all the time, There is a movie called barrabas (all about the man given freedom in Jesus place, he becomes a christian and a gladiator, sorta like the gladiator movie of russel crows but older.. not a bad movie.)

The soldier stabbed Christ to kill him because a storm was coming that was so bad they didnt want to be out there, but ahd to make sure he died and was dead, if he wasnt dead when they said so they would have been killed for lieing, he was def dead when they brought down the cross with is body on it.

_________
and finally Alexandros; If I was jumping out of an airplane, knowing that I was given a parachute is FAR more important than knowing how much sacrifice somone made to make it for me.

God's purpose for the Old testament was to show that we cannot save ourselves.
Then, having prepared our hearts, God provided a way to clean ourselves by sending his son to Live a perfect life and then pay the consequences for sin.
I know he made the ultimate sacrifice; I think The Passion was horrible because it concentrated on the "How" of God's salvation and not the method (Which is Repent of your sins, and believe that Jesus Christ lived and died as a sacrifice for your sins).

If you want to talk about the how; here is my description:
I put my dog out back. He can't leave the yard unless he is going on a walk, etc. Compared to my life, his life sucks. But, would I sacrifice my life as a human to become a dog to save another person, knowing that after enduring 14 years in a small pen that I would be tortured and killed? Jesus gave up his life and Godly characterics to enter time and live as a puny human; One who must endure every and all temptation at their severest levels while living his life in service to others until he made the ultimate sacrifice.
Knowing what Christ left behind so that he could live as a servant to created beings and then die to save them... that is what Christ endured, and it is well beyond our comprehension

True....i like that discription...

**SAPPHIRERUBY** · Jan 21, 08, 02:02 PM

I do not like to be lectured on the topic of religion. Informed, YES, lecctured NO!!!!!!!!

**NinPlayBox** · Jan 21, 08, 05:24 PM

had no intention of lecturing if you took it that way so sorry....if that was aimed at me??

I missed a bit of conversation and really thought people made some good points...

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