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I was learning and reading about angels and found this. Written by a non-christian. I always use believer and non believer indight because if the agree then there is no cause for argument.

website "Some Light on Lucifer" by Ina Belderis

Lucifer means lightbringer, from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring." The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ." The New Revised Standard Version translates the same passage as "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, Son of Dawn!" In other translations we find: "O shining star of the dawn!" (Moffatt) or "O morning-star, son of the dawn!" (Hebrew Bible). The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

In Isaiah 14 the prophet is taunting the king of Babylon: "In the figurative language of the Hebrews, . . . a star, signifies an illustrious king or prince . . . The monarch here referred to, having surpassed all other kings in royal splendour, is compared to the harbinger of day, whose brilliancy surpasses that of the surrounding stars" (A Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, John Kitto ed., 3rd ed., J. B. Lippincott and Co, Philadelphia, 1866, 2:857-8). There are those who claim that the real entity addressed in this passage is Satan, but there is no evidence for this. On the contrary, Isaiah (14:16) says: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, . . . ?" and (14:18) "All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out . . ." These seem clear references to a man, the king of a nation, not an archangel.



There is actually very little in the Old Testament to support the idea of Satan as a rebellious angel and the power opposing God. He is generally depicted as a heavenly attorney general (accuser) functioning under God, and this only strengthens the argument for not reading Satan into the passage about Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12. Isaiah is one of the older books in the Bible and is definitely pre-exile.

if there is no sound biblical basis for associating Lucifer with Satan, where then does the story come from that he is a rebellious angel and fell because of pride? The Christian Church made the interpretation that Isaiah 14:12 is connected with Luke 10:18: "He said to them, I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning." This unfounded, non-biblical connection of Lucifer with Satan has led to the popular misunderstanding that Lucifer is another name for the Devil (cf. "Lucifer," Harper's Bible Dictionary, Paul Achtemeier, gen. ed., Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1985).

So according to my reading the only two angels ever mentioned by name in the Bible are Michael and Gabriel. And Satan is the given name of the fallen angel that went against god. Only Michael is given the title as an aarchangel...What do you all think about that?

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

I think that Gabriel was a bit of a bastard, what with that flaming sword of his. God's creations don't seem to have much of a reputation for staying on the straight and narrow.

The first part of what you copypasted sounded promising; sounds to me like God would cast Lucifer out of Heaven because he threatened to 'outshine' Him.
And I find it ironic that he would darken the world through light, and I would usher in the new dawn with darkness...

Agreed. From what I've read, it seems like he acts out the orders of God ie. killing the firstborn sons of Egypt. I don't believe there's anything to link him to the serpent in Eden anywhere in the text, that I've seen anyways.

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Blasted sun. wtf

Um Lucifer wasn't the one cast out occording to the aboce... so noone was "outshining" anyone. the point was that there is little or no evidence to link the name lucifer to the "fallen angel" satan. God created them knowing what they would do for an example for us to learn from. We cannot pretend to understand a being that exists outside time.

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

And I learn from satan, the angel once known as lucifer, who was cast out from heaven because he was too smart.

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"Not I - I won't conform to what I see in you
Not I - I won't surrender what I am
Not I - And even if it was a part of me
Not I - I'll never be that way again"



Demon Hunter - "Not I"

Yet you seem at ease lauding His will to all and sundry.

I never do pretend to understand GOd just the things about him he has made clear to me.


sometimes i wonder what you mean...I know what those words mean so your saying

I am at ease praising and glorifying his will to all and the haphazard assortment of differnt things. Ill look the words up in a sec but Im pretty sure that doesn't make sense to me. I can be wrong but Lauding means to glorify and praise, and sundry means lots of differnt things in the same place or a hapahazard assorment of different things in a room.

now looking up.

sundry-Various; miscellaneous ussually used with compelation CDs.
Lauding-. Praise; glorification.2. A hymn or song of praise

If theres a differnt meaning let me know. But yes not being able to understand a higher being than me does not mean I don't follow them and praise him an glorify him, he isn't very sundry to me. Maybe lets not always try to sound overly intelligent and speak with everyday terms. I only know the tow words from church (lauding
)and my Lit clas. (sundry) because my teacher actually said she made out reading schedule a sundry of articles with no baring on one another.

Of course you already believe you smart and im stupid so maybe it just went over my head.

Just watched a cool movie called Gabriel it was fun..very catholic based and wierd but a fun watch....figured it would fit in here...in the movie gabrieal is the 7th arch angel and it names the 7 angels named in the Catholic bible. totally fiction...but is a fun watch and I think lots of you would enjoy it...let me know if you watch it.!!!!

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

Posts merged, do not double post Nin.

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dude no one posted in here in a long time..I had new info...don't be gay about it...jeez...just wanted to let people know a cool movie to watch pertaining to the topic of this thread....

sometime the old moto if you have nothing useful to say then don't speak... anyway this isn't a double post since its after someone else right...jeez

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

Nin, chill out. It's not a big deal, just a post merge, no biggie.

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"Not I - I won't conform to what I see in you
Not I - I won't surrender what I am
Not I - And even if it was a part of me
Not I - I'll never be that way again"



Demon Hunter - "Not I"

I WAS TRYING TO BE SARCASTIC SORRY IF I CAME OFF UPSET !!!!!! really...anyway love to all.

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

Yes Lucifer was cast out of Heaven by God for being naughty I think....Gabriel besides the flaming wings played a mean horn as well...

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You could have edited your already existing post with the info. Double posting is against the rules, especially bumping a thread with a double post.

Excuse me?

EDIT: See, editing is this easy.

If you break a rule, you will be warned. Don't be pissy about it, no one yelled at you, no one insulted you.

Unfortunately, there are idiots like you who simply can't obey basic forum rules, and I have to warn you lot. I honestly do not talk much in your threads because I cannot take valuable minutes out of my life to read your awfully typed, horribly spelled posts. I have much better things to do than read something a toddler smashed with a rattle.

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Yeah, but do edited posts appear as if they have new information from the outside? Are they punted into the "new posts" search feature which is my sole navigational tool on this board?

What's that?
No?

Reason enough, methinks.

So anyway, what WAS this new information? (Also, "all and sundry" is essentially a bit of slang.)

lol i read that again too lupus...your right...

I didnt THINK that editing an old post would get people to know I added new info. I also made it clear I was being sarcastic. Maybe your too smart or too distracted by bad typeing to see that. I also never said anyone insulted me, however i believE in this forum name calling and insults are not allowed, and therefore you broke that by insulting me...there are proper threads for that....oh wait your all knowing in that my bad.(AGAIN BEING SARCASTIC. )

anyway the new info was just that if you wanted to see a cool movie , pertaining to angels, Gabriel was a cool one to watch. for fun that was all. wow.

I didn't know it was gonna ruffle your feathers and get your panties in a twist coma. I won't; tease, joke, or be sarcastic, with you since it will obviously put you against me even more. So I'll swallow pride and say I am sorry for upsetting you so.

Next time I will just post a new thread and you can bitch at me about starting a new thread with info that could have been in an existing thread, and thus lock me in a catch 22 on stupid rules. seriously now.

(I'm pretty sure I typed it all correctly and didn't bang the keys here with a rattle or anything else blunt)

We are off topic now.. forget it I just wanted to recommend a cool movie pertaining to this thread my bad.

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Chrales Darwin- “ to suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

Double posting is not a big deal, rarely a major broken rule. But action will be taken, such as merging posts. To bump your thread, you could post a link to it in the shoutbox or ask staff to bump it..

'Don't be gay about it?'
'if you have nothing useful to say then don't speak.'

Stuff like that ticks me off.

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